Ep #135: Scaling Employee Engagement with a Data-First SaaS Approach ft. Will Turner (CEO, GoJoe)

Adil Saleh [0:40] Hey, greetings, everybody. This is a deal again. Your host at hyper engaged podcast, for the last three years, we've been we've been coming around different problems in the corporation that are more towards like employee retention, employee wellness, starting from really large enterprises to even now, boiling it down to small to mid sized companies as well, that retaining and, you know, the employees has been, has been the bigger problem than anything else, even even the customer. So, you know, it's, it's my pleasure to, you know, get connected with Will, who's the founder, Chief Executive Officer at GoJoe, that is a health and fitness app helping organizations to better engage, keep them connected and very much centralized, towards towards the fitness and health health of the of the organization and GoJoe. A little bit of about about this app is this been used by bigger, smaller to bigger corporations such as PayPal, Amazon, network, net was group that's pretty big out in the UK. And you know, all of these teams over today will will learn more about, you know, how will and and his Apple are making, making this transit transformation and making a huge impact. Thank you very much. Will for taking the time. Will Turner [1:58] Thanks for having me pleasure to be here. Adil Saleh [2:01] Perfect. So will I'm looking at your background. I know that you've been working closely with Olympian and athletes in the past, and then, like digital strategy branding with them at Olympic Association of UK. So how did you come across building apps such as GoJoe in the beginning. I know it's been like eight years, and you've been there for about four to five years now. So you know what was, what was the inspiration and in the start, and how did you see this problem having to work with with athletes during your time? Will Turner [2:34] Yeah. So I had no, I had no background in in corporate health or health insurance, or any of the great places that we find ourselves working in today. My background was I started as a lawyer, actually, in London. I then worked, as you say, for Team GB, the British Olympic team, for eight years, working in a number of roles there, kind of started very much as a lawyer, ended up a bit of a hodgepodge between commercial, digital innovation, etc. So my background was very much in the kind of consumer, commercial health, fitness, sport space, kind of in parallel with that. We, I say we, myself and my one of my co founders, Phil, we kind of stumbled across GoJoe as most of these things start, I think, as a bit of a side hobby, of a bit of a passion project, and the catalyst for GoJoe was, was actually a desire for us to create something that solved our own problem, which was and is, how do you motivate us as what we call ordinary Joe's the masses, the most of us, to get safe and healthy all year round, and at the same time we, Phil and I, it's on our website, if anyone's interested in kind of seeing our backstory. But we, when we left university, some, you know, 18 years ago, we lived in a house of 10 ordinary Joe's very, you know, into into our sport and health and fitness. But, you know, struggled for motivation. We'd have a physical event every year. We'd split into teams and go at it in Olympic disciplines, and we got something from that experience in terms of motivation and enjoyment that we didn't get from existing health and fitness, health and wellness apps. So we thought, actually, let's build our own products. Let's use social gamification, all those teams, all those great things try and motivate ourselves so very much as a kind of a consumer proposition, trying to solve our own problem. And that led almost immediately to companies kind of knocking on our door, struggling with problems that we now know very deeply. We now understand those problems very deeply. But for the buyer of our product, which is an employer or a corporate anywhere in the world, the problems we can get into this, but the problems we solve for the buyer are, you know, very different to the problems that we address for the end user. So we kind of have two customers in that sense, kind of classic B to B to C. But yeah, that was kind of the reason behind why we built GoJoe, which I think is really important, you know, for the company, in terms of having that kind of authentic brand story, and it kind of the underlying mission kind of dictates everything we do as a brand and as a product. Adil Saleh [5:14] Interesting, interesting, and looking at, you know, These challenges. I know that a lot of a lot of enterprise companies that have, like, huge funds going towards this, do it at a significantly high cost. And this is one of the factors for a lot of small to mid size companies to do it at an optimized cost. So how did you see it for for a mid market? I know. You've got customers in the enterprise, but as you mentioned, that it is for the masses, is for the for the consumer. So how did you mitigate the cost component of it? Will Turner [5:49] Yeah, our proposition is slightly different depending on the kind of the market segment. So for SMEs and kind of Lower Mid market. We have a SaaS solution. We basically sell two products. One is where we started, which is a challenge product. We built it because we really disliked things like step challenges. We want to go a bit clunky and didn't really engage us. We wanted to create something really consumer grade and something that would engage everyone, wearable, agnostic, etc. So we still do sell that kind of standalone product. But actually, in the last few years, we've evolved our, from my perspective, more interesting product, which is more of a an all year round benefit or platform. We have a SaaS offering which is kind of lower cost, more obviously higher automation for you know, the SMEs in the mid market, there's more of a customer success element for enterprise, but the problems that that product solves are far deeper than just, you know, a one off event, which is more about culture, engagement, experience. It's about the deeper problems that businesses are so struggling with globally, which is mitigating rising health costs, absenteeism, mental health, musculoskeletal culture, productivity, all of these, all of these things. And the heart of all of that is data. So we're actually a data company. At the heart of it, obviously, the front end is a consumer, gamified product that people use a lot. But actually, behind the scenes, it's a data product, because for us, it's all about ROI and being a product that solves the problems that we that we say we do. And in our space, we could talk all day about this, but there's an awful lot of products that kind of are out there that's, you know, make outrageous claims and aren't particularly great products, and we're trying to be the product that, you know, companies can trust and use and get really clear ROI on all of that stuff. Adil Saleh [7:52] I'm so glad you mentioned that you're a data company, because, of course, even in health and fitness, especially in the, you know, in sports, data is huge part. Analytics is a huge part in terms of, you know, keeping the athletes fit. And same goes for the organization. So you got to make sure, like, spending 300 bucks or 350 bucks per employee for the wellness budget is not going to do much, you know, you got to make sure that you provide them with the platform that enables them to see the data points, how their body is doing, how their mental health is going about, see through these challenges that you're talking about, you know, personalized challenges. Could you? Could you tell us more about these, these challenges that how personalized they are on the employee side, on on a consumer side? Will Turner [8:35] Yeah, I mean, challenges is, is a really, it's kind of a small part of what we do in that it's probably one of 10 features that we have. It's the most important because it's the call to action to get people into our product. So it's generally a launch pad to internally market GoJoe within a company. That's the way we see challenges. It drives massive engagement. The USP of it is that we can engage people, whether they're, you know, 18 year old triathletes or 70 year old dog walkers and everything in between. So huge differences between us and the kind of legacy, kind of step challenge products drives massive behavioral changes, wearable, agnostic. It's all about logging any one of the 59 activities that we have on our product, and there's an algorithm that sits under it, essentially to equalize the experience and and gamify it and make it as relevant for, you know, last places for first place. Big, big, big element there. There's something like 8 million combinations of challenge in the product. But that's just the beginning of GoJoe. So once you get into the product and internal marketing is a is a big challenge, as of itself, actually, the other things that keep you there are all the other things. So rewards is one. So financial rewards, ie, the incentive model that was made popular by, among others, vitality, kind of taking that to the next level, personalized health and fitness journeys. So giving you social accountability and structure clubs so communities that encourage people back to the office, locker benefits, communities, gamification. All of these elements are basically designed to try to appeal to and motivate as many different demographics as we possibly can, and it's really hard to do that from a technical perspective in terms of building that kind of consumer engine, but that's what we've been striving to do for the last few years. Adil Saleh [10:31] Amazing, amazing. I was also looking through your case studies, and it gave me an impression that you have a wide range of customer segments. Events starting from like, you know, sports groups, or, you know, these, these, you know, top media companies as well as some, you know, PayPal is completely different category. So how do you see your segment evolving? I know that ever since 2018 you've been given applying different, you know, go to market strategies across UK and European region. So where you are at at this moment in terms of customer segment? What? What segment Do you think that you can most penetrate in? Or you just think that we're going to upmarket any size of any organization can fit in, and they can use this, this platform, this app, for all of their employees and leadership? Will Turner [11:16] Yeah, it's a question we we often ask ourselves, actually, and obviously the general advice is to start with a niche, and then on the niche, and then kind of expand from there. I think what we found, and our marketing team will tell you, is that we're actually pretty industry agnostic. So we obviously have, if you look at our client list, you'll see a lot of professional services consultancy people sat at desks, if I had to pick one kind of leading, leading, kind of, you know, segment that in the kind of mid market enterprise, probably the, the biggest share of our client base. But then if you look at, if you look at across the board, we've got almost every industry you can think of, from education to oil and gas to, you know, retail mix of demographics, truck drivers, you know, it's kind of everything. So that's one of the things that we've had to work through. And there's been a bit of a challenge, actually, because it's less about industry, it's more about other triggers, other factors. So are there cultural things at play? Companies been heavily acquisitive, and therefore have culture issues? Are there mental health issues obviously prevalent in certain industries? Physical health is obviously a massively emerging one, so we do have a ton of data on that. All of that said, the the kind of the segmentation of our customers we think of, I suppose, more by size than industry. So the proposition is different if you're an SME versus if you're an enterprise, in terms of the products, pretty much the same. The thing that changes is that the integrations, the data, the sophistication of data that the enterprise will expect, versus an SME, the marketing support, stuff like that, but the the end product is very similar. Adil Saleh [13:09] Yeah, I got you like this. This kind of leads me to my next question, because I was thinking of your customer journeys. Of course, customers in different segments, different categories, with different problems, would have different implementations. You'll have like you'll have to involve different maybe third party professional services as well. So how's the implementation go post sales internally for your team, across different you can explain one of the customer journeys, and then we'll talk about how you're investing into data to make sure, you know, you of course, we can expand those customers, and you're increasing the lifetime value making sure they are adopted the platform they're using to the platform. And then, you know, having to stay on top of those data points to ensure the success of the account. Will Turner [13:53] Yeah. So I mean the SME as an example. It's all about the typical customer and buyer will be very time poor. Will have a lot be juggling a lot of things, and they will be looking for, you know, an automated SAS solution that people just use without much lift from them. So that's where our previously called business manager now called, I think Performance Center kind of now lives, and so it's, it's a, it's a case of, you know, they could do it all by themselves, but for, for learning reasons and being close to the customer, we choose to kind of get them set up with a human from our side, get them configured, show them the platform, and away they go. The product is, you know, kind of self serve, automated. Obviously we have, you know, check ins to to keep our finger on the pulse and learn from the users and the clients. If you compare that to to that configuration and setup is immediate, you know, from a technical perspective, really frictionless. Yeah, incredibly quick. And then from an enterprise side, it's, it can be a longer sales cycle. There's more so you start talking about integrations there. So I talk about data. I think we're really unique in the market. We're doing some really innovative stuff with Stanford, around AI and and others as well, on projects that we haven't launched yet, but we're building with our clients, most importantly, and that's where a lot of the integration stuff comes in. So obviously, enterprise will use many more platforms, HR, platforms and services, and it's by virtue of the engagement we get we think we're a really unique place in kind of being able to kind of, kind of complete that complete that circle of data and give that meaningful ROI data back to buyers. So takes a bit longer, bit higher lift in terms of bit more customer success. But that's exactly what you'd expect in a, you know, an enterprise, enterprise rollout. Adil Saleh [15:56] Absolutely and you mentioned that self serve model you want to scale that to, you know, of course, going up market as well. And what, what you're doing Data Wise and packing wise to be able to ensure like, what? What are those smaller accounts that are growing over time their teams are growing? Like, is there any kind of data structure or any triggers that you guys have for the post sales teams? Will Turner [16:19] Triggers? Because, in terms of what, sorry, in terms of.. Adil Saleh [16:23] The increase in usage, increasing, of course, the growth in the team, maybe that help you indicate, like the expansion of the account or retention. Because that's a goal, you know, to retain. To make sure they're they're actively using, leveraging the platform, using all the modules inside. Will Turner [16:41] Yeah, for sure. And I think we're not dissimilar to, you know, the many of the key metrics that SaaS businesses will track there. You know, weekly engagement, monthly engagement, retention, growth. We're, we are an interesting one, because we want to be a product that is opened up to entire populations, within a within a workforce. The reality with a product like ours is, you know, we have for the really small SMEs, we have seen 100% utilization and really good kind of retention over time, over time. The biggest challenge for us actually isn't engagement, it's more initial adoption which, which is in with internal marketing. So that's where a lot of our that's where a lot of our kind of product efforts and marketing efforts have been pushed. Because we find that once people download the product and they use it, they're really likely increasingly so to continue to use it. The Yeah, the challenge for us has been more around that initial adoption piece, that kind of top of top of funnel stuff within a population. But we've seen that trend upwards, obviously, as the products improved, as we've got savvier with kind of, you know, more of a kind of product led growth stuff internally, within a within a company. So yeah, we've got a ton of triggers, and the data team are all across that. I think we can still improve a lot on that one as well. Adil Saleh [18:02] Right, right. And you mentioned the SaaS platform that that also has, has a web experience. Or is this a just a mobile app? Will Turner [18:10] Yeah, that is web based. So the the SAS element is built for the app, the admins, we used to open that up to the public as a kind of as an acquisition tool, and for various reasons, we we moved it away from from public, from public usage. We may reintroduce it at some point. We did that for various reasons, but mainly because we wanted to control the onboarding experience. And as we were rolling out feature after feature, we wanted to get real time feedback from the from the from the clients. But yeah, it's, it's all web based for the admins. We're mobile first. We end user, although we do have a web app as well. Adil Saleh [18:52] Interesting. Why I was asking that? Because on web app, you can have, like, a lot of figures in app triggers that you can set up to ensure the success metrics are pretty much driven during the adoption stage. As you mentioned, that's been the been the been the challenge in the beginning. So okay, so now thinking about all the post sales operations at GoJoe. What kind of like team formation you have, you guys have, like, account managers, account executives, or like simple, like implementation managers for the SMB and then for enterprise, I think it's going to be more account manager working hands on with during the sales and post sales cycle. Will Turner [19:29] Yeah, we have.. we sales kind of will stay involved a certain size from a kind of relationship perspective, we have an implementation team who, as it sounds more about, you know, implementing, getting, getting the client on boarded, and the kind of the nuts and bolts. And then we have a customer success team as well, who get involved in varying degrees, depending on the client size, on the on the products. And that's a is a huge operate, hugely challenging operation. And as you'd expect, it's balancing the kind of pace of innovation and rolling out new features and trying to communicate that internally with automation as well, and trying to make it more efficient all the all the standard problems that any business in our space will will face. So yeah, trying to get that kind of decreasing reliance, if you will, on the manual stuff. While still, you know, we want to be we're really strong on kind of relationships with clients, and we try and, you know, obviously retain that. So, yeah. Yeah, it's a challenge, but one that's pretty well, well trodden outside. Adil Saleh [20:41] Yeah, you mentioned that you have, you also started showing presence in the in the New York City, mostly in the East Coast. West Coast is more like B to B SAS quartet. But you know, East Coast is more for the games, and innovation in the game AI is making a big impact. So how you're thinking towards, like, spending into the into the North America. Will Turner [21:01] We have, yes, we have a we're lucky in that we have a lot of clients in America that have all been inbound all over the US, literally all over the US and Canada as well. So that gives us a really good footprint foothold to kind of launch from the US is a is a really interesting market for us, because one of the biggest problems that we solve is around health costs and and the that the health system over there is obviously requires a lot of investment and and cost pressure on the employer, and that's Something that we help with and we measure so it's a super, super relevant product for us. We've just taken on some headcount over there, and the discussions we've been having, both West Coast and East Coast, have been a mixture of, you know, meeting clients, speaking to investors. We're going to be, I think we'll be raising kind of sooner rather than later, again, largely to fund our US expansion. So it's investors, it's partners, particularly in the InsurTech space as well. So very much on the East Coast and Chicago, there's a lot of intermediaries and insurers and reinsurers who are all very interested in what we're doing. West Coast. We partner with, we partner with Stanford and others in the space as well. Adil Saleh [22:23] Absolutely. So you mentioned that you're also trying to raise funds to, you know, make sure you keep up with with all the investment needed to expand in the US more than before. So what are like? What is that one thing that you're excited but I know a lot of you know, college teams, clubs within universities, out in out in the out in New York City, and they are investing heavily into into, you know, analytics and these apps that gives, gives data for, like, better fitness, for the college kids and all even school kids, like school coaches are investing, and schools are investing a lot into it, the two. So how, like, what makes you so excited towards, just from a standpoint of customer segment? What, what industry you're going to be targeting, or you're going to just go all wide? Will Turner [23:12] Yeah, I think it's similar to our existing footprint, really, which is, is literally a, you know, live discussion at the moment. So with the biggest, the biggest thing for us is distribution. So if you have to summarize, kind of where we are, got an amazing product. We've got a really good kind of growth engine in terms of pipeline and people coming in, but a lot of it is kind of direct B to B, and in our space, a lot of the sales is intermediated, ie, sold by brokers, so establishing the relationships with the brokers and the resellers. And you know, the InsurTech value chain is really, really important to us, and our products, we know offers a huge differentiator for those intermediaries. So I think at the moment, for us, it's less about which particular industry we target, although you know that is relevant, but for the reasons I explained, what's more relevant is reseller, intermediary, and probably company size, which more dictates the problem, rather than, you know, industry. So that's kind of where we are at the moment. And yeah, there's a lot of, really, it's, it's kind of chaos at the moment, but I describe that in it as good chaos. Bags under my eyes will attest to it just kind of the amount of kind of conversations and opportunities and discussions we're having at the moment are pretty mind blowing. So it's for us, it's just trying to make sense of the madness and trying to focus on the right things, which is, you know, the challenge. Adil Saleh [24:44] Having big, big laser focus is super important cutting the noise. Because, you know, when you tap into. Industry that are huge, and people are asking for like, product wise I was asking more, as you mentioned, it is a it is going to be a data product, like data platform. So when it comes to data, if you just go into different niches, this, this, it's going to take your product to, like, all sorts of different places. So you gotta make sure you're absolutely lying with the vision of the product, product wise, engineering wise, and focuses, as you mentioned, is super informed towards what your product today is, doing the best and doing the right product. And from the beginning, as I'm seeing your you know, testimonials and case studies, this shows that you have a really good product that saves the half of half of the fight. Will Turner [25:34] Yeah, for sure. I mean, we've been, I always say, I think we've probably been, if it is a criticism, we've probably been too product led, in the sense of, again, kind of come back to our space, which we were very much blissfully ignorant of. Really, there's a lot of businesses in our space that are very similar. Very sales and marketing led, you know, sound incredible, but actually, if you look at sound incredible to the buyer, but actually the most important stakeholder is the end user. Because if they don't, if they don't use it, they'll just, you know, the engagement will be poor. ROI will be non existent, and they'll get switched off. So I think in the long run, the way that we've done it kind of product first and then improving on sales and marketing, is that I prefer to have it that way round than ship a kind of crappy product and and struggle with retention and and all that stuff. So yeah, it's a slower burn, I think. But I think we've got really, really strong foundations to scale. Adil Saleh [26:34] Love that, love that so inspiring. So now tell us more about your team. How diverse it is in terms of skill set, in terms of you know, of course, the ethnic grades, culture. How is it at GoJoe, like, six, eight years out? Will Turner [26:51] Yeah, we've so there's about 25 of us. We're global, virtual or remote organizations, so we very much grew up in kind of the COVID era, and we've got so roughly half of our workforce based in the UK, kind of dotted around. I'm currently sat in a we work in central London with with three of my colleagues, and we've got a presence in Romania, very kind of tech and product based. We've got a presence in Philippines, and we have now got some headcount in the US as well. So we kind of span, span the globe, in a sense, really diverse group, really diverse skill set, I think, up until very recently. So we've gone through a lot of the kind of learnings and challenges and reflections on recruitment and bringing in some amazing people, bringing in some, you know, sans but not so amazing people, but that, as is the way of a startup. But I think what we're increasingly good at is judging, is getting it right more often than not now. And I think our kind of mantra when it comes to recruitment is, I think I can what the what the three? I think hunger, humility and hustle are the three, three things we look for over, you know, a glistening CV that has particular skill sets. So our stage of growth, I think I prefer having just really good, smart people that are hungry, that can learn, rather than, rather than kind of, necessarily specialists as, I think our stage of growth, it gets quite expensive to have a ton of full time specialists. We do use a lot of freelancers who are specialists. You know, take SEO or Google ads or, you know, just as two examples. I'm sure that will change as we grow. But yeah, that's our kind of that's our kind of beef at the moment, and it tends to work quite well. Adil Saleh [28:50] Yes, having, having the amount of hunger and humility, and you know, what's the third one? Will Turner [29:57] Hustle, productivity. Adil Saleh [28:59] You know that? Yeah, I mean, it doesn't demand a lot of skills. It's just about you're you're driven by passion, and you're absolutely bought in, into the culture, and you want to do something big, and being positive. So now talking about AI. This is the last segment I wanted to have with you as well, because I'm really curious about the capabilities of AI, these language models, and these agents and CO pilots. You might be looking around, everybody's building their product, and everybody's building a co pilot, a co agent. How does it? How is it panning out in your industry, in health and fitness, as you mentioned, you are a data company that's going to be a huge component of leveraging AI to its fullest potential to to serve better as a product. How do you see it as an executive officer? Will Turner [29:45] Yeah, I mean, AI is, you know, in, you know, almost well, is in daily conversations. I think there's a couple of ways I look at it. One is, first of all, everyone's doing AI, and that it becomes quite a fatigued word, because it's used very much as a you know, as you all know, it heavily drives investment discussions, and it's definitely over leveraged there. That's the one thing I'm really excited about, AI and loads of different ways. I mean, we use it internally as a business. It's probably more relevant at the moment, internally than externally. I in the products. So we use it in a ton of different ways to automate our processes, increase value, all that kind of stuff. And we're always trying new stuff out and trying to encourage everyone to use it in different ways. And yeah, the agent stuff is, is a great example of that, and also there are examples of where it makes more sense to go with third party providers who leverage AI in ways that we can't do quickly. So really, really bullish about that, and really excited about it in terms of our own product, we're incredibly excited about it, and I think we've been really, really kind of careful to make sure that the use case is the right one. So there's been a million ideas as to how we can use it, and llms and all this kind of stuff. I think it's funny because our CTO, he is extremely bullish on AI, but often talks about how it's used in the wrong sense. So, you know, it's just he's been talking about how we've been using AI since the start in certain respects that people may not consider it to be a traditional use of the word, but yeah, some of the stuff we're working on with Stanford, in terms of the data and the product, is super, super innovative and interesting in our product, in our consumer facing product as well. So I'd say slightly more challenging to find a use case that genuinely solves a problem and drives long term value. I've seen a lot of products in our space do what I would consider to be, Oh, that's interesting. Bit of a gimmick. Never going to use it again. Which is, which is hard to kind of get around. But yeah, for us, kind of the generative AI piece and enriching the user experience, rather than just providing a crappy chatbot that you know people aren't going to use much, is the is the challenge. But yeah, so back end and front end, different utilities of it, really excited about it, and, yeah, we'll be launching something in the next few months on that side as well. Which we which we're really excited about? Adil Saleh [32:28] Wow, good, good luck with that. I'm sure you're cooking something really interesting. You know, in relation to generative AI, leveraging generative AI, tell us more. About, if you can, about your collaboration with Stanford, what is, you know, what is the higher goal that you're trying to advance there? Will Turner [32:47] It started as we work with various functions within Stanford. It started collaboration with one of their professors who we've got an amazing relationship with, called Professor su chi Huang, who is actually a strategic advisor to GoJoe. She is an expert in psychology, behavioral economics, gamification. So very much been the first actually, we reached out to Suu Kyi many years ago when we were pretty much three guys in an MVP, and we her, she'd written an article on health and fitness journeys, and it's about the the journey, not the destination, and a lot of kind of psychological principles that we loved and was really relevant to what we were building. And we basically spoke to her a few times and said, Look, we're building this product. Do you want to test your hypotheses, using us as a playground. And so we did a couple of pilots. They provided the brains, we provided the product. And then we got some some clients to be the people. So we did a collaboration with itsu, if you're familiar with the UK sushi brands, and did it, did a study on the impact of physical health, on physical activity, on mental health, which was really cool. So lots of kind of research around impacts of competition, gamification, reward, incentives on people's behaviors. It's all around that that's now expanded too. So we lectured at Stanford a few weeks ago, which was an amazing experience, and it's expanded now to a wider collaboration around AI, more on the clinical side, on the sports performance side. So lots of different pillars to it. We're really excited because obviously they're some of the smartest brains in the world, and they can help us build a better product, which is what it's all about. Adil Saleh [34:38] Yeah, I'm glad to also hear that it's been strategically advised by someone at Stanford as well GoJoe and you know, wish you good luck with that collaboration. And I'll keep on seeing more more when you write more about it on the blog. And definitely you guys, what do you guys do at marketing? Like you have newsletter, you have blogs going out, is tha right? Will Turner [35:04] Yeah, we I think it's an area we can improve massively. So we've got a really small marketing team who are incredibly stretched thin. So newsletter, we don't do, I'd love to, I'd love to do it. And there's a really, a really good opportunity for us to play in that space and drive more awareness. Blogs we do bits and pieces in kind of certain, certain parts of our product, but it's an area we can massively improve on. I think a lot of our when we when we talk about marketing, a lot of it is, I would say, kind of behind the scenes, through, you know, intermediary sellers, all that kind of stuff, so more of the kind of, I suppose, not internal, but unseen, which was one of the reasons we did our, you know, our last, last investment round was to reverse that and actually create more awareness in the market. Because, you know, without kind of sounding arrogant when we get on a call with our ICP, with our buyer, we tend to do really well and kind of blow them away. So for us, it's about filling the funnel, getting the name out there, creating more awareness. And obviously stuff like newsletters and other kind of organic content is stuff we're not doing as much as we should be. Adil Saleh [36:15] It was really nice meeting you and getting to know GoJoe and your journey with it and your industry. It was so exciting to you know, have someone like you, what makes you, by the way, excited, product wise, going into this this year, 2025? Will Turner [36:32] It's all around data and the projects we're working on with. So we have a product. Great innovation group with some of our most important clients, some prospects and some of our strategic advisors, who are, you know, Google, Stanford, some really smart people. So that project we hope to announce in the next couple of months. But we're incredibly excited, because the you know, we're always in search of the bigger problem. The bigger problem that we can solve for our for our customers, the better. And this one solves, you know, the biggest problem out there in our view. So it's a, it's a big ask, because it's kind of, you know, creating something that obviously isn't out there yet, but, but we're really, really excited about that, and lots of hard work getting into that one. Adil Saleh [37:27] Earning all the power and all the all the luck and positively your way towards building this. And we'll definitely check it out in about about two to three months time. Thank you very much. Bill for taking the time again. And it was, it was nice. Nice chatting with you. Will Turner [37:43] Likewise. Thanks a lot deal. Take care. Adil Saleh [37:45] Thank you. Have a good rest of your day. Will Turner [37:475:1] Bye, thanks bye, bye, bye