Paul Staelin 0:00
If you are your customers partner, you need to link arms and you need to tell them when they’re doing something stupid, because you will both pay the price.
Taylor Kenerson 0:12
Welcome to the hyperengage podcast. We are so happy to have you along our journey. Here we uncover bits of knowledge from some of the greatest minds in tech. We unearth the hows, whys, and whats that drive the tech of today. Welcome to the movement.
Adil Saleh 0:31
Hey, greetings, everybody. This is Adil from hyperengage podcast, I have my co host, Taylor Kenerson. And our very special guest, Paul really jolly very interesting as we had a bit of conversation, the post- Before this meeting, we had a record. So thank you very much, Paul, for taking the time. He’s the VP of Customer Success and services at Trifacta, which is a very interesting platform. I mean, serving in the data preparation platform, it seems like they’re working with big data. Let’s explore more. Thank you for joining today, Paul.
Paul Staelin 1:05
Yeah, well, thank you for having me. I’m happy to be here.
Adil Saleh 1:08
Cool stuff. So Paul, looking at your journey, like academics, I was looking at back in late 80s and 90s, you’ve done your your bachelor’s and then MIT and then you have an MBA on top from Stanford. How does like- of course, education is necessary back in the day, even at that time, it was technology boom, Microsoft coming Apple, you know, you know, hitting the internet? What was your thought process? Is that young age, getting into technology that you are right now, of course, you’re more integrated with with businesses and communities in in the valley. And there was, that’s how it all started. So what was your thought processes as somebody who’s young?
Paul Staelin 1:51
Yeah, well, so generally speaking, I decided to major in electrical engineering because I like math. And I like science. And my father was an electrical engineering professor and what the hell? Why not? Why not do that. And I loved it. The place where I went for undergrad had a tiny web department, only 15 people graduated a year. Which was awesome, because in every class, I could raise my hand and bring the whole class to a stop if I have a question. I didn’t feel bad about it. When I went to grad school at MIT, my first lecture had 200 people. And there was no raising of hands and asking questions and stopping the class, by the time I got there. But during college, I actually got the summer internship that just literally changed my life. I don’t know if you guys have ever recall, the name of the company that makes that tri cornered phone in every conference room ever, is called Polycom. And I was there when they were launching the first version of that phone. I had a summer internship, I was researching their next generation product. So I was doing the web work for their next product. But it was 22 people on Friday nights here, and it was out here in the Valley. So Friday nights, traffic was awful. So I would stay late and rollerblade with the CFL. Which as a 21 year old doesn’t normally happen. But it was way more fun than waiting for the traffic to die down. And every week, we’re meeting in the cafeteria and going over engineering breakthroughs, marketing advancements, new contracts that were signed up analysts who were given good reviews of the product. And it was so exciting, and everyone was pulling in the same direction. It felt like a team sport. I was like this is what work should be. So at that point, I went startup. I liked the small teams, I liked that I knew everyone and felt like I could bond with them. And it was the right place. For me. The reason I picked in my undergrad is because I have a small major I wouldn’t know everyone and I’ve always liked the smaller communities. So that that kind of was the jink in the curve I went to grad school to move from chip design to signal processing because I thought there’d be a lot more startups in communications than it would be in chips. Although there are plenty of chips that were more in communication, and then managed in grad school to hook up with some professors and start a company and started the entrepreneurial journey with was actually an electric vehicle company before it was cool. And did that for several years. Building out you know initial prototypes, distribution networks, getting success stories, when to raise the money to build the factory and ask the guy factory in 1998 Like it was the .com boom we did not have a .com After our name and no VC wanted to fund a factory. So we sold the business to our closest competitor and I went back to business school to learn all the things I should have known before we started the started the business. So I’m just kind of like how I got into startup and kind of wide the the educational journey I pursued. And I’m happy to talk about kind of opening the software from there. But that’s kind of the early journey.
Adil Saleh 5:12
Amazing love that. I mean, it’s all about how you connect your dots. And sometimes academics is something that helps you trigger those dots in terms of knowledge in terms of information in terms of exposure, just like this, this similar to this happened with Steve Jobs as well, he left Apple and he went to the school had a degree, had a had that calligraphy class that it had a real impact into the design of the first Mac that came out. So it is all about, you know, getting your academics and having a directional knowledge towards what you’re trying to accomplish at that point. It’s not about thinking too much, far out to long term at that point. A lot of people do. They seek visibility they seek. And they try to chase passion at that point, as young as 21. So a lovely journey. Man, I also see your your prior experience that first 14 long years you spent there and you started with with a pretty unique role that sits on top of all the customer facing operations. And these more with supportive tech teams as a chief customer officer, could you dive deep into how, you know, what was your intention initially joining this some platform like Birst and then joining as the chief customer? I mean, some of the challenges you had, personally to join that that role with- chief role. And those milestones you did? Yeah.
Paul Staelin 6:40
So this is where the the part of the old guys story is gonna come out. But what- left business school, went to Siebel systems, which was salesforce.com
, back in the client server era, and when dinosaurs were still walking around there. The they acquired a little analytics company called Inquire, and they wanted to take all the data that people had typed into Siebel and turn it into pretty dashboards. So people can actually measure their business, not track a service request. But how many service requests are we getting? And being able to do all the math and trend and all that stuff. So I got assigned, because I previously been an entrepreneur, to be the person who would figure out what the sales analytics application should be. And so I got to build that business. You know, we literally got called into runs that, hey, we just bought this company. There’s a list of products on the wall, mine was sales, sales analytics, put my name next to it. That’s it. That’s great. There’s people for me for service and order management and marketing and all the other things that are in our CRM suite. I said, That’s awesome. What is a sales analytics application, and they went, Oh, we’ve already sold it, though. So be sure to ship. So I got to make up the product and do all these things. It was three awesome years where I got to kind of just imagine what this thing would be because no one really understood it. The people from the analytics side didn’t understand the sales side, the people on the sales side had no idea what analytics were. So I had a lot of freedom. Despite it being a big, tightly managed company. I have a lot of free rein, which was unusual at the time. That was a lot of fun. During that journey, however, one of my closest compadres and collaborators was the gentleman who managed the analytics platform, on which my applications were built, gentleman by the name of Brad Peters, a good friend of mine. And we had plenty of time, working late, complaining about how inefficient this process was, and all the things you’d like to do to make it better. And we left the business to start Birst with kind of the premise being Hey, I bet you could do this better in a SaaS web, if you build an integrated platform, instead of having all these layers of a cake that you have to stack together. And each time you have to declare every object, what if you made it one thing so you declare at once and you just go more quickly? And that was kind of the the idea for for Birst. I started because I came up through product I started on the product marketing messaging, actually did some of the initial sales calls and spent everything on the figuring out what would what would have value what would people want, and how can we get it to them and what should it be priced at all those good questions. And as the company started to grow, we started having some challenges on the delivery side. And as we kind of looked around the table was like, okay, Paul, you go solve that problem. And so I went to the back of the business and there was one support engineer. We did not yet have a CSM and we had I think four or five servers As people who were who were working with customers, and I was very fortunate to bring in someone who’s been a longtime collaborator with me, as one of the first real CSMs gentleman by the name of Andrew Kane, or I hope you had the opportunity to chat with and he had been in telesales at first and but have the right mindset about how we make our customers successful, how we set them up for long term success. So we get the renewals and we get upsells and pulled him back into the business. And the term customer success was just being coined. Literally, at the time, it was, we got to make it all up. No one, no one knew what they were doing. And so we got to kind of imagine what we thought it should be, and kind of built it from there. And I fell in love with the delivery side. Because there’s a reason I’m an engineer and not a physicist, I, I like when things become real. It’s all fine and good. But you want you want to make school hard for me, you make theoretical physics, you want to make school fun for me, let me design something that I could actually make at the end of the day. So, but software is very theoretical a demo is a demo until the customers using in my opinion, it’s not real. It only becomes real in its application. So that part of taking what is what is what is a kind of a beautifully designed thing. And then making it something that actually works for someone is the part that I like so that I’ve kind of fallen in love with the delivery sock is good.
Taylor Kenerson 11:35
Yeah, I was just gonna say it seemed that builds, you know, from the foundation, you have this idea, this theory, and then being able to see its journey actually in action. And the end destination is what, you know, fulfills that end of you, and then dive into how I love you have such a unique journey and to see us because you’re a veteran, you went from, you know, data startup entrepreneur analytics. Now you’re, you know, then you’re bridging in so many different cross functions in different niches and stuff that you’re passionate about into now, CS, how do you drive CS with all of that unconventional experience that maybe traditional CSMs Don’t have? Because they’re coming into it for the first time. And that’s their only thing that they’ve, you know, encountered with a company?
Paul Staelin 12:25
Yeah, well, then I’ve the good news is Birst, you know, grew over time from from, you know, three people sitting around the table at a Starbucks to over 300. And so everything you build two years later, is only broken now. Because you’re bigger and different. And so you rebuild it and re rebuild it. And you get to see what works and what didn’t work and why this was figuring out why this helped and why this didn’t. And so I learned a ton, which was awesome. But in terms of kind of the the perspective I bring is fundamentally, CS is very much about guiding the customer. And I’m using this word very specifically. Because because most companies when they first start, and I’ve generally played, at the- the jobs I’ve had and that attract me are more software platforms. It’s not an application that has three use cases and when I show up, I know what’s one of three use cases, and I walk you through those three use cases. Platforms are things that can be used for anything, right, and data and analytics, anyone this is the good news, anyone with data can use it. Here’s the bad news. Anyone with data can use it. It could be marketing, it could be- we’ve actually locked up at Birst, the logistics, business on most of the logistics, like the shipping containers, apparently didn’t sell to enough of them based on what happened in COVID. But shipping containers, it can be people who have software applications that want to provide dashboards for them, you can use it for anything. And the data itself can be arbitrarily huge. It could be log data from 1000s of routers, in text form, or it could be a teeny, tiny database. So you’ve got orders of magnitude and complexity, you’ve got orders of magnitude and scale, you’ve got orders of magnitude and structure. And you’ve got to figure out how to guide people to analyze their business productively, despite not having any idea what their business outcome might be, necessarily, because, well, you have to figure it out. But but when you start, it could be anything and their data could be anything. And having that flexibility to be able to adapt on both ends is is that’s a real challenge.
Adil Saleh 14:46
It is a big challenge.
Paul Staelin 14:49
So I love that. So, in general, my approach has been to build since you don’t know the endpoint and you don’t know the starting point. to really build out a process that allows you to systematically ask questions and get the right technical people in the room to help at different points. To help them follow. The analogy I use is basically find the paved trail through the woods. And a lot of companies when they first start, and we did this, we first started, which is why we had some of the livery challenges we did was sell a very flexible tool to a customer who can use it for anything, and they know best let them figure out how they want to use it. Well, we soon yeah, people are wanting to reclaim halftone, some of them with no ropes right away, day one, some of them want to dive to the bottom of the ocean with just a snorkel mask. And they’re trying to do these impossible things that are wildly inappropriate. Generally, they’ve had a couple of days of training, but they don’t, they’re very smart and talented, but they’ve never used your platform before. They don’t understand any of the nuances, and they make these architectural decisions on day one, that are horrifically bad for them. And for you as the as the vendor. And there’s all kinds of pain. So we basically set up a process where we could systematically identify where they were trying to go, identify where they’re starting, bring in the right people who have worked with the tool forever, which is our employees, right? People been there for a long time, we map out kind of the architectural path for them, help them build the first use case, or two or three, but build the first use case, make sure they go to training, they work with us as they build it, they don’t make those horrific decisions that by the way, at the time, you don’t know where horrific, you only find out three months later, right? Like, right. So you avoid picking the path that has the bridge that’s missing, and all those things, and really set them out on the path. And, and the CS role is really kind of the conductor, making sure all these steps are happening, and that we’re identifying the value, guiding them to the value, make sure we do real checkpoints. And part of the methodology that we’ve always used is, and you have to be very open, because every customer wants to change their journey as they should. But they don’t want to change it so much they fail. And so gotta have the courage. And it really is courage, courage and confidence to stand in front of some of these customers and say, I know you want to do that. Let’s talk about why you want to do that where you’re trying to go. And I promise you there’s a better way, like for instance, did you know you can just walk up Kilimanjaro, you can free climb Half Dome, if you want, or you can get to the same heart just by walking up Kilimanjaro. So you’re dead, where you want to be on Kilimanjaro, which one?
Adil Saleh 17:57
A lot of people they need, you know, customer facing leaders and, you know, talking to these senior leadership, C-Suite leadership, especially in the mediums in our skin underground. A lot of them, we have experienced people sharing these opinions are not they are not talking the language, they are not all they need is just clarity, visibility into where they’re heading. And they’re trying to they’re not so much confident and courageous, as you said, when they’re thinking so much of falling back and you know, losing that customer or losing that relationship. So it’s all about, you know, being brave, and being pretty much blunt at times, even in the difficult conversations, and see your customers as partners. And you know, you’re married to one idea, one goal, and you’re working together as a group, which I’ve seen you you’ve worked quite a bit, as you know, on the GTM side of it as well. I’m looking Birst is a platform that seems like serves more towards the medium to large scale enterprise. How does it- the GTM look like for the SMB mid market? Like when you were building the frameworks, and you had some experiments? Could you share more some of the experiments and some of the challenges and key takeaways, because we have started? We have I’m sorry, we have sales platforms from Series B to Series C that are more serving towards small to midsize businesses, they are really facing big challenges when it comes to GTM. But limited funds, you know that it’s not the best time to raise funds right now that easily. So I would appreciate if you just go down that route a bit when it comes to working at this.
Paul Staelin 19:39
Yeah, so. So there. At first we predominantly had two motions. We started in the mid market, right? So 50k a year kind of sales 30 to 70. Right, that kind of fat middle with a CSM and some services how light services help and built a journey where we could walk you through those early use cases and build out the education and do things with a high rate of success. And it’s generally relatively small team using it for for a very defined use case at that purchase size. At least for us, it was one one focused use case, almost exclusively. So we got through that first use case, reset, right, you were not done forever, because there obviously need to evolve and adapt. And there may be a next use case next year, but but you’re really mostly there. We also have big enterprise relationships. That could be you know, a quarter million from to two and a half million, were the first use cases general is just the first use case like they’ve got, they’ve got a long list of them. And there’s a slightly different engagement model takes more of the CSM time because you’re not orchestrating the early dance through one use case you’re orchestrating through plural, use cases could be two could be seven, right? Could be 15. That takes more time. So if your accounts but they’re higher dollar, so we can afford to invest the time. And orchestrating that journey was those two motions, rhymed, they were very close to each other, weren’t identical, because you can invest more in one case than the other how often you touch base after that, you know, a little more a little more frequently with the customers and the small ones. The place where when, when I moved to trifacta, which has since been acquired by Alteryx, as Chief Customer Officer of Trifacta, and that made me a VP at Alteryx. The, the basic thing that we had was a lot of mid market, a lot of enterprise, but the part of the motion that was new to me, was much more of a PLG $1,000 A year, I’m opting in kind of motion, and Trifacta, like Birst is a Data Prep platform. So again, you could be using the data for anything, it could be data on anything, it could be any department, it could be any complexity, it could be any structure, it could be any scale, everything, all the same degrees of freedom. And so the motions that Trifacta rhymed with those from burst, they’re different, of course, because the actual outcome, what a successful use case looks like how they get out, like all of those things are different. But someone who worked at first, who moved over to Trifacta would not take long to learn the new motion. They were similar. Yes. But the part that was really new for me is how do you deliver guidance? And this is hard. How do you deliver guidance for $1,000 a year. And this is a challenge that we were getting into.
Adil Saleh 22:49
Like that to self-serve, you got to make sure that you’re not spending a lot of resources like you have like systems in place that can you know, have some sort of PLG motion to it. So you can expand, you can adopt those customers, and then you can expand over years. So that’s good. So tell us more about it.
Paul Staelin 23:05
Yeah, so So we ended up. And we were very fortunate, very, very capable woman take this challenge on but it was how do you sprinkle out welcome emails and videos. And then we augmented that with early touch, for customers that want it because plg a lot of times people go plg, because they don’t want to talk to you. Right like this is, if someone’s getting 50,000 500,000 or 5 million from their boss, they generally want to talk to you, usually, because they don’t want to blow this, right, they want it to go well. But $1,000, they are signaling by their purchase that they don’t want to talk to you general. So providing for those that want it. And we always reached out proactively, but not everyone took us up on the offer. Basically, we found that if we did for any of us to be totally different depending on your product and other things we’re about for one hour sessions. With those that opted in, we could dramatically improve the success arc for those customers that opt in it and raise the success path overall. But you’re only going to get you know, we got, I don’t know, a third to half of the people to opt in ever. That’s the highest we got. But if you can put a real kink in the curve for 30 to 50% of the early customers, a lot of them then ultimately a year or two later turn into mid market and then a couple of years as-
Adil Saleh 23:57
the lifetime value gets expanded. Great. So I mean, you’re talking about onboarding, most part of it was, you know, four sessions that before it was pretty much hands on. So there was more of the you know, onboarding integration and you know, maybe knowledge sharing some of the training center. So do you think of course, every customer experience is unique? As you said, for $1,000, they may have different they want to leverage data for different operations, unique operations. So did you make an attempt as a as a GTM, leader, to make a unified or maybe a standardized standard for for customers to maybe have some sort of plg touch to it. And then you can do it at scale, of course, doing four sessions, it becomes pretty, you know, on the cost side becomes pretty, you know, expensive, hefty investment, as, as some business that has been there for about six, seven years. So how did you get it? Did you have any kind of temp didn’t get as a Business Intelligence platform was touch easier. But now talking about Alteryx? What kind of experiments you had in that domain?
Paul Staelin 26:02
Yeah, so So we tried and, in general, there’s, so if you’re the conductor of the orchestra for a 50k, or 500k, or $5 million relationship, you’re very much the conductor, right services comes in, you are not necessarily people learn what the basic best practices are. And they pretty quickly recognize that someone says, Hey, I want to go do this thing. Like, based on our conversation, you’re trying to accomplish this, I think you’d do better down this path. But they couldn’t do the design, right. So in the plg motion, we had to have people who are more technical. And, and to have the ability to provide honest to God, technical guidance, we added an envelope, we could kind of with good conscience invest in the $1,000 your customer, we generally skewed to people who are newer in their career with more technical skills, who wanted to get to the customer facing side. And more of a services, skill set and mindset, then a support, skill set and mindset. And they could in fact, you know, we did have online training that you could opt in for free, right, you just go take the course. And that was one of the things you did in our emails is pound people to go please go take the training, please go take the training, you can take the entry one, which is pretty quick. You can do it in you know, an afternoon to a day depending on your background. Or, and then if you get through that you can do the advanced one, which is going to be two days, but at least do this one. And so we we leaned heavily on trying to get customers to opt in to these courses. Now, people’s attention span back way back in the 1900s. When I was starting my career, the people didn’t mind spending an afternoon but now an afternoon is an eternity, give me a video that’s two minutes long. So building out, building out that education content in a way that can be chunked meaningfully is kind of where we were at the time of the acquisition and the acquisition kind of not hit pause on that because you got other other things to figure out, right. But how you take that afternoon, which is already bite sized, and to call it half hour to two hour chunks. turning those into five minute videos. Two minute videos is really hard if we were getting to, yeah.
Adil Saleh 28:31
Alright, so where you guys at? like Alteryx, I’m sure you’re going to join another role is real, real soon. So how do you see the journey of Alteryx going forward in the next few years? And what are the key decisions that you’ve made? Or you’re going to make in the coming years that are going to define the real success? Sure, you recently got acquired as well. So what kind of operations operational decisions as well. Few want to put some light on?
Paul Staelin 29:00
Yeah, so fundamentally, and I’ll answer this more retrospectively and prospectively, we’ve always been I’ve always believed very firmly. There are there are really two measures of success for customer success. But there’s really one most important one is net dollar retention. We all know people have finally I think come around to the correct definition of net dollar retention. I invented the same store sales metric, that that captures the real idea because some people will do net dollar retention, which is renewals minus attrition over what was available to renewal. What What you need is renewals plus anniversaries, minus attrition over renewals, plus anniversaries because I could have a three year contract if I’m going from year one to year two. Hey, I’d love that. 100% of those bills that Duloc paid in some quarters, that’s true. But generally, someone’s gone out of business, there’s some real hardships, something happened somewhere and you get back, I don’t know 98 97 99, some a high percentage, but not 100. And I found net dollar retention. If you ignore the anniversaries, you’re disincentivizing, your CSMs from getting two and three year contracts. If you measure with the total revenue stream, not just those that are up for renewal, you’re incenting them, we’ll put as many into the 98% renewal lane, as you can, instead of the, you know, 88 or 82, or 90, whatever the rest of the business is, your your total, your total renewal rate is going to be higher, the more you run through the 98% line 99% line. rate. So
Adil Saleh 30:53
yeah, it’s all about- I’m getting my anniversary down for for the first year in three months. So let’s see how I retain.
Paul Staelin 31:02
Wow, well, congratulations. That’s the most important renewal of all.
Adil Saleh 31:07
Paul Staelin 31:11
So the I think the first anniversary is paper. So way back in the day, when I had my first anniversary and tickets to events were still paper that was that I chose a paper ticket to the opera just out here, but the neither here nor there. But that’s how we make. The other one is obviously NPS. And we measure NPS, both periodically with a survey from the company and at the end of every support case. Just to make sure kind of got kind of our finger on the pulse of what’s going on different audiences is very different audiences actually working in the tool that runs into issues Biles, the cases the honest to god practitioners do that. On the business people around the practitioners are the ones you really want to run the periodic surveys for, to make sure you’re getting their voice to. Right.
Adil Saleh 32:02
So how do you go and you know, I’ve see a lot of SaaS businesses doing standardized NPS programs like these service periodic services, how do you personalize it? I’ve seen some of the businesses I’ve spoken to. They’re having a personal personalized service very to different industries with a different segment of their customers. Do you do anything like that? Or are you planning to do any personalized, maybe not for everybody that comes in once. But you know, those customers that are lying in the mid mid market space, at least to get the real feedback? Because if I get like, I’ve had one from Intercom last week, a few weeks back, I was just like, going, Oh, that’s fine. It’s good. It would have taken me only five seconds. 10 seconds. That’s it? I didn’t bother too much. I don’t even remember what I what I get. So how do you place systems and psychologies around building these personalized experiences when it comes to NPS?
Paul Staelin 33:03
Yeah, so and this is where being in the platform space, I’ve got a slightly different take on this. Because we don’t have three use cases where if I know which of your three use cases I can send you with a tailored survey to you. If I’ve got 1000 customers, I’ve got 1000 use cases. So so we had to give this the same uncover kind of the same things. And again, more with the process of asking the questions in a set sequence to get the answers we want. Rather than digging deep, yeah, it’s we can only get so deep, to make it consistent.
Adil Saleh 33:39
It’s not scalable.
Paul Staelin 33:42
I mean, it’s scalable, you can send a million of those emails, but but in terms of the questions in the sequence, on generally everyone gets the same. What’s really different is the support cases because there’s got to be a minute or less. And when we send the periodic surveys to the business people, we’d offer, I don’t know $15 Starbucks something below the gifting limit, to help incent people to take the time. And that would be I call it seven minutes to really do five to seven minutes. I mean asked about different aspects of your relationship with us. The terms of how things are going with the CSM, how’s your experience with support, like just these high level things? And each page is a minute, but you know, there are several of them. Right so that was that was kind of a trade to get the broader input and that generally hit a much bigger audience and the the practitioners of my cases.
Adil Saleh 34:39
Okay, interesting. Paul, you’re such a powerhouse of knowledge. I got it in like these 40 minutes and we’ve learned a lot. Not a lot of guests that we think that we need to learn from this person is so much of experience behind and there is no substitute to it. And it is entirely my pleasure, Taylor’s pleasure to have you round and have you- listen, you know, listen to all of these experiences that you’ve shared. And, you know, on the like, you’re serving the principle. Like it’s, you know, how much of what CS and customer experiences and go to market frameworks might have changed. But the fundamentals and principles have remained the same. And you people, like, you know, these folks that have done it for decades. They’re still sticking, and they’re preaching the principles, and we need more more people like you. And it was entirely my pleasure to have you here today and, you know, learn from you.
Paul Staelin 35:40
Well, thank you for having me. I’ve enjoyed the conversation and I have been happy I was hopefully a little bit insightful.
Taylor Kenerson 35:48
Thank you so much. Amazing. It was amazing. Hopefully you enjoy your warm weather over there.
Paul Staelin 35:56
30-35 degrees this morning. So not not-
Taylor Kenerson 36:00
Ooh it’s rough over there. Love it. Thank you so much, Paul. We’ll be in touch we’ll talk soon.
Adil Saleh 36:11
Thank you so very much for staying with us on the episode, please share your feedback at email@example.com
. We definitely need it. We will see you next time and another guest on the stage with some concrete tips on how to operate better as a Customer Success leader and how you can empower engagements with some building some meaningful relationships. We qualify people for the episode just to make sure we bring the value to the listeners. Do reach us out if you want to refer any CS leader. Until next time, goodbye and have a good rest of your day.