Ep#65: PropelAuth and Beyond: Tech Journey and Startup Support ft. Andrew Israel (Founder, PropelAuth)

Andrew Israel 0:02 You are the one who is running the company. And that is a great position in a hard position for all the reasons that you know. And so figuring out which things you accept and don't accept, it is really hard capsule. Taylor Kenerson 0:12 Welcome to the Hyperengage podcast. We are so happy to have you along our journey. Here, we uncover bits of knowledge from some of the greatest minds in tech. We unearth the hows, whys and whats that drive the tech of today. Welcome to the movement. Adil Saleh 0:31 Hey, greetings, everybody. This is Adil from Hyperengage podcast with my co host, Taylor Kenerson. Re special and very unique guest today and release the founder of PropelAuth. It's an authentication platform for developers, mostly technical teams. He was prior to that he was a back end machine learning engineer, that's very, very interesting. San Francisco based product clockwise, that is more of a scheduling software, and it helps with your workflows, daily workflows, and you know, your own organization. Processes. Thank you very much, Andrew, for taking the time today. Andrew Israel 1:08 They of course, so thanks for having me. I Adil Saleh 1:11 love that. So I was looking up and I was learning more about you earlier today. So I was thinking that, you know, it is good to have some sort of technical experience, you know, back end machine learning data science, all of those, you know, core skills in the days of AI becomes pretty handy. And then going on and building a platform like propel out, how did that journey, you know, compiled you as an as an engineer on the technical side. While while building the product, such as propeller, Andrew Israel 1:42 I think of a lot of experiences that are all over the place, like you said, like they've done machine learning work, you've done front end work, you've done back end work. I think a lot of that comes from like, just being at small startups for a while and having to kind of wear whatever hat makes sense. Like, the some of my initial front end work was just we need a dashboard, we don't have a dashboard, I can, I can throw something together. And then you start learning about it, and you get better. Same thing for machine learning. I was like, we had a couple of places that I worked before basically just had a lot of like small scale data science problems, and I would go read about it and then just work on it. And one of the reasons that I love startups, just because you every day is a little bit different. And you kind of get pushed a little bit outside of your comfort zone. But that's where you like, learn and grow at time. So yeah, it's it's SERPs are amazing. For just like learning and growing as a, like an engineer or founder, whatever you end up wanting to be. Adil Saleh 2:37 Okay, one question like building, of course, doing it for other startups. And doing it for your own startup, of course, when it comes to seeing it as a business owner. From from the business standpoint, as well as technology standpoint. And when you're so much more than that, a lot of things that you don't know, how do you combat Andrew Israel 2:59 that? interest interesting. As a founder, I think you're put in like a harder position here. Because like, when you're there's a massive leap from like, being an early employee or for some play to being a founder. And it's just I think, the amount that is, there's no person to defer to, there's no like, Oh, I'm not sure, let me go ask this other person who is largely on you, you can obviously get like advisors and other people that you talk to, but like, at the end of the day, it is like, everything is kind of on your shoulders, for better or worse. Like, I think there's some aspects of that that are amazing. And there's some aspects of that that are stressful and scary. Actually, it's probably a little bit of both. But I think like, I try and combat that by like just getting advice from other people like there are lots of people out in the world who have gone through, like similar experiences before. And so asking them, how they approach problems like this, how do they form like remote team? How do they hire for remote team to find the go to market strategy for a dev tools product, like, you will obviously can't really, you need to like, figure out how it works for you too. But going and talking to a bunch of people and bouncing ideas off a bunch of people is a really great way just to get to Oh, okay, I see like the rough landscape of how this was done before I have my own opinions about how I should do it. But I'm not starting from nothing and just kind of like guessing and stuff. I'm at least like starting from from somewhere. I Taylor Kenerson 4:23 think that that's also really big point too, is conversations are sometimes really undervalued. And when you actually there's a difference between just, you know, shooting the shit, they would say, and you're just brushing over, you know, whatever. And you're just like asking, oh, how was your day? You know, we've all heard that before. But when you get into the nitty gritty and you're really curious, and you put on that curious, curious hat to uncover and unpeel the layers you you do find these hidden nuggets that give you answers to your current situations, especially if you're surrounding yourself with the minds that have done something similar to what you're trying to do or have had this the same access experience. So tell us kind of how maybe your support system has helped you in your journey and then kind of guide us a little bit into your journey and where you are now. But before that, where why see what what why is he was about and yeah, kind of paint that picture for us. Andrew Israel 5:16 The interesting thing is, for me it started like my my first job out of college was I worked at Palantir. And it was a backend engineer there for a couple of years. And then we did lead a couple of different teams. And I think like, when I joined, the company was still small enough that you can like go out to lunch and have, like conversations with other engineers. And then like, often what I would do is just be like, Oh, what are you working on? Tell me more about, like, why are you approaching this problem this way. And I don't know why I did that. It was just like a natural thing that I do. And but I realized that I was just learning a ton very quickly, from everyone around me, like I got to work with some very brilliant people in a very, very fortunate. And so I kind of just carried that throughout my career. And so like when we jumped forward a bunch, when I started the company initially, even just like the decision to apply to YC was largely based off of, it would be great to have someone in my corner who has done this before, who I could just like directly ask questions to, like, I'm very confident that I can build a good product, but I was not confident in all of the rest of the company. So I was like, I've never fundraise before I wanted someone to be able to talk to you to just be like, is this a good idea? Is this a bad idea? Another thing that I found is that talking to other founders who are going through the same things as you are, even if they're just like, one step ahead of you in the book is really helpful because they're like, either actively experiencing what you're experiencing, or they just finished experiencing it. And so, for me, I also was able to find a bunch of folks in the YC network, especially like around the same cohort as me and we meet regularly we talk about, like, where companies are, we talk about the problems we're facing. And just like having that support system allows you to, I think it does two things. One is like you get like actual very reasonable advice, and you can talk ideas out. And the other is you understand that the things that you're facing are not just you just think is actually another really important part of the journey. It's not like, I don't know, I think it was very easy to be like, oh, like, everyone else has solved this problem, because it's a very classic impostor syndrome thing, where you're just like, everyone else in the world has solved this problem, except for me, I landed on an island. Exactly, yeah. So like, knowing that other people are going through the same thing as you and knowing that, like, we're all kind of solving it together, it was just really, really helpful. I'm trying to think of like, the tangible examples of that, like, I guess one, for example, is like, early on, we decided on like a content strategy of like, the best way to reach developers is to write a lot of really interesting content that is engaging. And part of that just came from like a conversation that I had with an advisor advisor who was like, you know, you should really just try writing some good content. And then we like talked about that for a while it was a longer conversation than that. But it was largely on the back of just like one conversation with an advisor who said that we tried to we ran a couple of experiments, we were like, Oh, this actually works really well. But yeah, just as much as possible. Finding people who you trust, who can give you good advice is like so invaluable at this stage. Adil Saleh 8:13 Absolutely, absolutely. And networks such as YC, the community that they have, like, you'll find a lot of people fishing in the same water as you. And then you connect, you're talking about technical experiences. And I also heard and the you know, we hear a lot of YC stories, you know, they prefer technical teams, because they can do iteration, in very, very quick succession as computer as opposed to founders that are not so technical in the market as yours like API integration, technologies, these, these are very traded in the beginning. So my question is more towards Of course, you had an idea you did something that you believe in my you might have lived in the past, you have the same problem, and then you're trying to solve it for a day make an impact. Now, how do you validate your product? First off, like, Did you I'm sure, it's initially what I believe it's not about just paying customers, you aren't, you're not choosing so much pain situations, but you are trying to look for active users that can actually actively give you feedback during alpha beta loan. So how did that go and play out for you? Andrew Israel 9:18 Yeah, that's a good question. Basically, I think the early stage of the business, the most important thing is just like, are you on the right track at all? And I think I did the first thing that you're not supposed to do when you first start, which is like, you talk to 10 or 15 Friends of yours, obviously, you're like, is this a good idea? And I'm like, yeah, absolutely. This is great. Go build a coal company and invest all your time. And I think, really, what you want to do is get to like, there are good books and resources out there to read about doing good user interviews and there are like, the Mom Test I think is like classic one that people talk about. But you basically want to the thing that I did subsequently after like building the initial MVP was starting to show it to more people search and just like cold outreach, a lot of folks would be like, Hey, I don't know you, I'm building a company, I would really this is not a sales pitch, I like absolutely would love your feedback on it just like figure out if I'm on the right track at all. And that helped a ton like it is it's really helpful if you can just find people who will be very blunt with you, and your circle of friends, probably not that people. So I think I started in probably the wrong spot of just like, oh, this is a great deal. Because like, everyone in my friend group said, what happened when I started to talk to other people was I started to figure out exactly who my target audience wants. So we do when I first started the company, it was like, I want to make authentication more approachable for people. And our target audience was like any developer anywhere building products, and that is a hard target audience, because it's hard to really, it's hard to really, like narrowly speak to any individual when you're talking to everyone. Absolutely, yes. So over time, what I realized is that the people who were responding strongest to the things they were saying were actually like b2b companies, it was because a lot of our pitch revolved around like, I want to give you as much as possible out of the box. So you can just go launch your MVP, and b2b companies have all of this additional complexity where it's like, you're not just onboarding a single person at a time you're onboarding a team of people. And with that comes, invitation flows, and who can see what within your product and some of our customers stay on board like large enterprises at a time, which is a whole other headache that needs to be very secure, and that there's a lot of worries there. But it wasn't until I talked to like 50 people in the world where I realized that like, b2c companies were responding well to it, but they weren't like, oh my god, this is so exciting. And b2b people were like, Oh, my God, this is so exciting. And that was when I actually like you said, as a technical founder, you can kind of tailor all your messaging, you can start building out features that specifically speak to b2b companies. It was really like, built a quick demo, built an MVP, starting to talk to as many people as possible, and then the rest kind of warmed itself almost. I think just talking to people out in the world is a really great, great clarifier of like, Am I on the right path or not? Adil Saleh 12:14 Absolutely. And that was post MVP, or you were just trying to share the idea or maybe presentation deck or product deck that was Andrew Israel 12:21 posted up like the the journey was really like talk to a couple of people build out a quick MVP on calls, that would be the thing that I would show people if they asked for a demo. And that was people's reaction to like seeing it was really like the thing that I mostly responded to was for some people, it was like just reaction to the messaging. And that's also super helpful. But yeah, I think like, if I were going back and doing it again, I would probably flip that a little bit, I'd probably do all the conversations first so that I can build an MVP with a little bit more knowledge. That being said, that worked out so far. So Adil Saleh 12:55 yeah, yeah. And then it worked out. So now tell us a bit about a YC journey, what kind of questions you've been asked there. And how you basically plan all the, you know, application process, interview process, Demo Day, all of that, because there are loads of products sitting in the queue waiting to you know, apply for this and undertake. So you go ahead. Andrew Israel 13:17 Yeah, like the thing that I did before applying was just like, write down all of the good and bad things about the company. Like the all the things that you think are super impressive about the company and all the things that you think are like worrisome if you were an investor. And I think like, usually, my advice here is the thing to not neglect as part of his pitch is you and your founding team. I think it was very natural to like, pitch the company and how cool it is. But you should also be you should also try to explain like why you, the founding team are the right people to build it. Because that is really I think the thing that makes a lot of companies unique. And so did that exercise kind of pitched to the company and obviously, like a slightly different format than I do today. And I think a lot of the questions that I ended up getting were questions about, like, why is now the right time for the product? Why? What is like the key insight that you have that other people don't have? It's yeah, actually, do you think a lot of these questions are things that if you look for like YC interview prep, you will find the YC interviews themselves are I think all over the place. So starting to, other than the first question of like, what do you do? It's hard to know exactly. Well, Adil Saleh 14:29 there's some 200 questions two years was learning great. So they were looking for like, you know what kind of pros and cons you have on the team as a chroma as a business as well and try to see how confident you are towards your strengths and weaknesses. And sometimes, you know, being self awareness is one of the things that you you should you should be pretty much up to like and that's it. That's what they try to gauge. Like how self aware are these teams around their weaknesses? These are great like Post YC wants you, I'm sure you want to say something. Andrew Israel 15:02 No, no, that was just gonna say, I think on that point, it's also important to not necessarily shy away from the weaknesses, like, showing an understanding that you know them is really valuable. Like, you're not trying to present like, my company is perfect, it is the best thing that has ever existed, we have no flaws you're trying to present like, here's my company, there are flaws because every company has them, but I understand them, I'm gonna work around them, which is like a subtly different thing. But it is important to be aware that hiding flaws is actually probably going to hurt you in the long run. Taylor Kenerson 15:37 Yeah, and I would actually emphasize that going head on and showcasing your flaws from the start might be the best approach. I mean, most people shy away from it. So if the hurts going to hide it, then if you want to make yourself stand out, just emphasize your flaws. I mean, mine, I'm not, I'm not from a CS background, you know, but I am learning CS through conversations, just like you said. So the really important thing is just being an active listener and engaging with people and understanding these different elements of whatever you're trying to do from just like you said, the conversations, and that happens, sometimes the conversations can be uncomfortable, like, you're not always gonna have the perfect conversation, it's not always gonna go good. You know, you're not always gonna vibe well with the other person. But you know, you move on, and you and you continue to find your way. And I think that's really important. But before we dive a little bit into that, what what did you go into yc? Pitching? What was your initial idea? And kind of how did that? If it did, how did that evolve? Throughout where you're at now? Andrew Israel 16:35 Yeah, that's a good question. I, the original reason I started the company was because I was frustrated. Basically, like, I'd worked on authentication at Palantir. I got like, a lot of amazing experiences there. i After going into like the startup world, I found a lot of founders that were just like, building a ton of stuff on top of their app providers. And then I got kind of frustrated that a lot of the tooling in the space kind of like forced you to become an expert yourself. It was like, the first question you're asked is like, which offload Do you want to use? And it's like, no one should ever answer that question you shouldn't have to. And so the pitch that I started with was, we take on as much of the authentication flow as we can, like, we provide full UIs for you, we like provide clean API's pretty use clean interfaces. And really, that pitch largely stays the same. But the difference is that we're not pitching to everyone anymore. We're pitching primarily to b2b businesses. And the whole product is really designed around, like getting a b2b product off the ground or grabbed quickly. But I did pitch the initial, I didn't have the b2b focus until after I got into yc. And talked to like a lot of people and realize that that was just a way better direction for us. Taylor Kenerson 17:46 Yeah, less of a shift on the idea and more of a shift on the audience and just standing where your signals were coming from and where you were actually getting traction. And I also think, you know, as a founder, it can be difficult when you keep getting the signal like, Hey, b2b, in this case, b2b was calling you, but maybe perhaps you didn't see it, or you wanted to ignore it, because you thought, you know, this was the way and I think a lot of founders could get caught up. And, you know, oh, I have this idea. And I know it's going to work for this audience, instead of actually taking kind of a back like a back seat and saying, Oh, well, where are we getting traction? Actually, who is resonating more with our messaging and our product? And I think that kind of hurts a little bit, because you have to face like, you know, your little baby is out there. And now someone doesn't like it. But at least you're pivoting and able to iterate a little quicker. Andrew Israel 18:36 Yeah, no, absolutely. It's, I think it's hard not to like bias really heavily to like, my initial idea is perfect. No, everyone who says something bad about it is wrong. I think like, leaning into that a little bit and figuring out like, okay, all of the people who are saying really nice things about me, all of our like early adopters, who are who love us, they are all like this one archetype. Maybe this is the archetype that I should be selling to like. And it's scary. I think the scary part is also that you were just like, looks like making your audience smaller, is like, there's like some tam calculation where it was like, previously, we had a larger one, and now it is smaller, but still is large enough. And it's still, if you can speak to a smaller audience, but you can speak more clearly, and you can build the more tailored product, I think that actually does go a long way. But your initial, your initial idea is more for like a jumping off point to figure out the rest of the problems more so than like, this is the perfect idea, like scared as I'm going to run with it. Adil Saleh 19:35 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the first thing that a lot of founders they need to get over is visual thinking. So they have to be you know, a lot of these days of course, it is good to work with the idea talk to the future customers prospects ahead of launch ahead of even MVP, but you know, you cannot a lot of these decisions you cannot make without handing it over to the to the people to the actual customers and you know, having to see See that? What kind of experience that they're having? Like how it's delivering the value at the end of the day. So now talking about market positioning, I know there are, you know, a handful of tools in the space, and you're trying to penetrate in one segment, how did you think of I'm sure it's still a pre pre product market fit. So how are you planning to position your product and what is what is the scalable model that you have planned? Andrew Israel 20:26 The general positioning that we've had is basically like, we can get to live faster than other companies. And we can basically make it so you have to do you can ship your MVP faster. And so we actually have a couple of different, like, customers that we end up shipping, like pitching to, but our primary one is like early stage startup founders. And if you think about, like, it's fun, because we have a lot of empathy for what they're going through, because we went through it not too long ago. And so if you think about, like, the stages that they're at, it is like, stressful time you're trying to get your MVP out, you are. Yeah, it's just like you're building a thing that is yours. And everything about it is stressful and scary. And so a lot of our positioning, and a lot of the way the product is designed is like how quickly can we get you from nothing to okay, my authentication is done, this is one less thing you have to worry about. And so we've had customers who have like, tried one of our competitors, and spent like a couple of weeks building it and switch over to us and gone live within an hour or two. And they've sent me messages that are like, relief. And so a lot of the positioning that we have is really around that is around like, how quickly can we make this real for you? How quickly can we legitimately check this off of your like, very long launch checklist? It's been going well, so far, like I think there's other customers that have popped up who I think every founder has the like, this is the use case that I care about. And this is the use case that I'm focusing for. And then people find a bunch of other ways in which you are also nice. That's kind of our like, primary positioning. Adil Saleh 22:05 Very interesting. Like it's more of, you know, precede like startup three seed startups more of these and and then you try to go up market the time. So how many customers? Do you have, like 10 customers right now? And, like what kind of posts is journey that you have like, foreseeing how your onboarding it? I'm sure there's, there's technical documentation, do see on the website as well. So how does our selves shirt is that as well? Yeah, when it comes to Yes, Andrew Israel 22:34 the fun thing for us is basically, like we have been, we've gotten to the place now, I think when you first started, it was like every single customer you were fighting very hard for. And you were like, as for me, I was doing like cold outreach, constantly, just like finding folks, I still do that. Because I think it's really important. It's really important to like stay close to your customer and to talk to them. But we're now in the stage where we are like, growing like 25 to 30% month over month, more on the back of like people finding us signing up and going live without talking to me. And so that has been like a really nice shift in the company over the last couple of months where, like, we have like natural, just like people, people find us like us go live, say nice things about us. And that is like really, really the fun place that we've gotten to. Yeah, I think it is still nice to be able to have like those natural those like sales conversations, even if for no other reason, just to see how people respond to the things you're saying and stuff like that. But yeah, we've been very happy with how we've been growing over the last couple of months. Adil Saleh 23:45 Cool, great. So you like just click on the post sales? Like? What does your onboarding look like? Like, is it self? Or is it more hands on now? How you're playing it to make it more scalable, and, you know, having more sensor because customer getting converted to, you know, increasing the lifetime value of the customer as well. So how are you getting on that? Andrew Israel 24:07 The So, for a digital product, I think it is very important to have some self serve element to it. Like I think I can say this, as a developer developers tend to be very skeptical of products and like the best way to limit their likes to combat that is let them use it. Like as much as possible. You don't really want to like I had things you wanted to say like look, this is my product. This is the state that it's in this is like, here all of the levers that you have here all the tools they have available to you and not be like in order to use this you have to talk to me or you have to do a sales call or anything like that. And so we've been sort of actually from like the very, very beginning and I think there's always like small things that aren't self serve. And so like for me, I I think there are small things we're like okay, we can like enable this customers thing for you, and then that will be fine. And then eventually we'll get that into the dashboard and make sure that it works for everyone. But we try and make sure that everything we do is either self serve, which is really obvious how to turn it on. So you don't have to talk to me if you don't want to. And that's really the I don't know if that's an amazing strategy for everyone. But for a developer audience, I think that was a very reasonable one, just like, there's no substitute for like, look, I have faith in my product, you can see that you can sign up for it. If you use it, I would love to know how you feel about it. And then we don't have to get on a call or anything like that. But the that part, like it's the part where you like understand your audience well enough to know exactly the nature that they want to like purchase software to try out software is really important. Adil Saleh 25:42 Great, absolutely. And you're also monitoring their activities via slack group, or Slack community group that a lot of these open source platforms have to Andrew Israel 25:51 Yeah, so we do like a Slack connect, we do like direct connections with a lot of our customers. And that tends to be really helpful for like, when you are on board, like our practice is very, like there's an initial period where you are configuring and setting us up, and then afterwards, there, you are off doing all of the other things they have to do for your business. So that's really helpful for just like getting a direct line to the team. I think especially in the early days, there's a lot of feedback that you can get that people will slack you that they won't email you. It's like the difference between like, hello, like, this feedback isn't important enough for me to send like a formal email. But this feedback is usually enough for me to like and send the message to my coworker. Yeah, exactly. Adil Saleh 26:34 Cool. Really interesting. So, you know, time is pretty much up. So now one last thing, like being a startup founder, been in the space with propeller for about two years. Now? What is the number one thing you wind? Want to start with other startup founders to be reminded? Like, what is that one reminder? You gotta give? Andrew Israel 26:56 I feel like I have two answers to this, but I'll do the more meta answer. Adil Saleh 27:01 Your way, that's the best way. Andrew Israel 27:05 This is a very meta answer for like, what advice do you have, but I think my advice is actually, you, as a founder are going to get a ton of advice from everyone, like solicited, unsolicited, like, almost everyone you talk to, will have an opinion on what you were doing. And I think the most interesting thing is that it's really on you to figure out what you take, don't take for me, I wanted to, like 20 years from now, if I look back on this, I want to be like, I made all of the best. Like I made all the decisions that I was comfortable with. I did it the way that I wanted to. And I would rather not look back at it and be like, oof, I don't want to have any what ifs around like this person told me to do his thing. And I went and did it. And like it was a good idea. But I did it anyway. I think like if you treat everyone's advice with like that as a suggestion that I could take up take, it helps because, man, there's a lot of advice in the world. And some of it's great, and some of it is terrible. And some of it is great, but it's just not for you or your industry. So it's it's you just have to be very careful. Adil Saleh 28:09 Yeah, and sometimes no is as good as yet. So you got to learn to say no to a lot of things, a lot of voices that you hear you, we got to cut noise a lot of times and I do appreciate that you're thinking like buy CTO, we're also building a product. And he, he takes advice from other CTOs, like I have people in the network. So I get him, get them connected with them. And there are some backhand, that he's a full stack back. And he's building all of that. So there are so many nitty gritty little things like how they're building tables, how you, you know, building data pipelines, there's so many things that people have to say. And he said the same thing like, this is this approach, this logic is what I think would be good for now. And then we can always on a scale, we can always change. It's always good to trade for but at this point, I think this is good. I don't want to you know, hear someone else's ID on it opinion on it. And you know, two years, three years down the road, I when things are not just working as I planned. I blame them. So I love that this happens a lot with engineers, by the way. Andrew Israel 29:09 I think it is. It's also just like super natural. It is like it. I don't consider any of it to be malicious in any way. Like some of it could just be like a conversation where someone is like, oh, you know, I approached this like this way before. And like that can be an amazing thing or a terrible thing. If it means like, Oh God, I have to go redo a ton of infrastructure. Yeah, it's, you know, your business past is like the thing that you were spending is like the thing that takes up all the space in your head, you're spending day in and day out thinking about it. You should listen to the advice and you should take it if it makes sense but like he did like you are the one who was running the company and that is a great position, a hard position for all the reasons that you know, and so figuring out which things you accept and don't accept is a really hard problem. So Taylor Kenerson 29:53 sometimes this sometimes it's the the inner conversation is the most important one we were just talking about. conversations a lot and you know, putting a lot of emphasis and value on the conversation with others. But it's almost more important to understand who you are, where you're at, where you're at your inner darn basis. Yeah, where they stand in comparison to other things. And then you can, you know, get advice and take it with, you know, gratitude, but don't take it and meld it as your own right away, you know, filter, whatever is going on, and then, you know, proceed to make whatever decision you think is the best in that moment. And hindsight is always 2020. Andrew Israel 30:31 Yeah, no, I also like to say like, I am between 20 and 80%, correct. And any moment, and I don't know which one it is, but, like, my goal is to just try and match it up as far as I can. Adil Saleh 30:44 Love that. Okay, Andrew, thank you very much, again, for taking the time from your schedule. It was pleasure talking to you hearing your stories, and they are more interesting than most. We've had here. I love that. Andrew Israel 30:58 Awesome. No, thanks for having me. This was really fun. Great. Awesome. Take care. Adil Saleh 31:06 Thank you so very much for staying with us on the episode. Please share your feedback at adil@hyperengage.io. We definitely need it. We will see you next time and another guest on the stage with some concrete tips on how to operate better as a Customer Success leader and how you can empower engagements with some building some meaningful relationships. We qualify people for the episode just to make sure we bring the value to the listeners do reaches out if you want to refer any CS leader. Until next time, goodbye and have a good rest of your day.